don't feel soo bad, try working in China.  You'll then appreciate HK

100% agree with what you state and your observations.

I have in the past even interviewed LLB (law) graduates who just cannot speak proper English.  Truly amazing!  And yes, those on the lower socio-economic scale people like taxi drivers, waiters clerks etc who are older are much more likely to speak English than younger/recent graduates. Even tertiary (but local) educated graduates.

And your observation about how shop-keepers treat Putonghua speaking visitors now vs then!  Yes, I remember very clearly the practically disdain some of these sales girls would have towards "A-Chans" (a quite derogatory name for Mainlanders) compared to the practically servile attitude shown to them nowadays!  Again amazing!

But I also can NOT appreciate how some foreigners would judge a person by the level of his/her English proficiency.  Just because a person does NOT speak proper English does not mean that he/she is of low intellect! I'd suspect if such a foreigner meet our own Superman Li KaShing (and not know who he is), he would stupidly and naturally think that Li was light weight - just because he just doesn't speak proper English!

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Reply  #941 scootermonger's post
How TRUE!!!  LOL!  Yes, English is practically non-existent in China.  But at least you live in Shanghai; try some of the less westernized places!! Man..... I have lots of problems as I don't read or write too much Chinese and I may as well be blind if trying to find anything or any place in China.

On the other hand, I have also met with some of the most intelligent and impressive people in China, even going back to the mid 80's when meeting up with Master and PhD degree holders from Oxford, Harvard and of course China's own universities like TsingHua etc. And these guys, since they ARE the elite educated - they really stand out. China though, is so screwed up generally - and IMHO, getting worse for foreigners as they start having more and more pride and confidence with their own country.
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Reply  #940 harrychan's post

Well.... try looking at it as glass half full instead!

After all, the place must be tailor-made for you to be able to SHINE!!!

Sorry - not to be making fun of your situation - but really, if you analyze it all, you really have much less impediment towards fast progress in your firm than if you're working at a place where everybody is of high quality.


SEAJ

[ Last edited by  SEAJ at 3-3-2011 01:42 ]

I agree Bro!

I am not looking for anyone major! As I understand that they can go out & find better & full-time jobs. My idea is a part-time basis as some suppliers I wish to use do not speak English. I am learning Mandarin (When I have time). Then (touch wood) offer them a full-time job during the summer. Although their is better jobs out there, there is also a lot of competition for those jobs!

I have had a couple of successful interviews with young university students (one hottie! ) - Who do speak fluent English. As it is only a part-time basis to beging with. I have offered them good incentives etc for the future.

Fingers Crossed!

really?
after i worked in China, i feel HK really really sucks.
but maybe, that's just me.

I think another large factor with the decline in English skills is that less people from more developed Asian countries like HK, Taiwan, and S. Korea take a Western education as seriously as they did in the past. While in the past, many would immigrate to the US or Canadaand see it as an open window to opportunity, now the students come for college, hang out with other international students exclusively, then return to their native country. The degree still seems valuable, but the network within and career oppportunities post undergraduate university seems to have fallen considerably in their eyes (whether justified or not).

I don't know about students from other countries but for HKG students in overseas Tertiary education, this rather unfortunate phenomena of them gravitating towards mixing with other HKG students is further exacerbated by them not being as fluent in English as their earlier counterparts.  
And of course its back to the fact that the quality of education they received in HKG Primary/high school,  IMHO, has gone down, in particular in training them for English language proficiency.  

But you bring up a very interesting dimension to this discussion on whether mixing only with other International students is going to be more or less advantageous to these foreign students; First thing first, most countries I think actually discourage foreign students from staying in their country after graduation - so there really is not much to gain from building up one's network amongst the locals. Add to that equation, the perception that most Western countries are in a decline whilst "the East" is in for a long period of ascendancy, I would think that networking amongst other International students would pay-off with the largest dividends.

Actually I really think it silly that most Western countries would discourage - and even prohibit - foreign students from staying on for subsequent employment.  Why push away some of the best young minds around from participating AND contributing to these places. Rather out-dated thinking IMHO.
SEAJ
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Reply #944 Kaka's post
Hey Kaka - Welcome!

I gotta agree that working in China sometimes fills me with awe and wonderment at the acumen displayed by these Chinese businessmen and professionals. Awe, wonderment - but also the fear of God - for I many times worry about NOT being able to keep up with them/make sure I can come out alive when doing things with them!!   

And as for Hong Kong - yes, quite sad to see that Hong Kong is slowly but surely just turning into another "nation of shopkeepers"  Everything seems to be migrating North and our supposed leaders are just kowtowing to the powers-that-be.  But then again, what sense is there to do anything else - for the reality is that within another 36 years, Hong Kong is going to be just another Mainland China city.  Strange how some of these rabble-rousers amongst us NEVER mention this fact - and stranger still that the powers-that-be would MOSTLY fail to also mention this TO THEIR ADVANTAGE.

Oh well

SEAJ

[ Last edited by  SEAJ at 3-3-2011 16:14 ]

China is the Global Power now and will be for the foreseeable future. Probably more relevant to consider that more Westerners should be learning Mandarin (rather than French, German and Japanese).

I remember about 5 - 6 years ago I was having dinner at Jimmy's Kitchen in TST with a friend from Qing Dao with his wife. They spoke Mandarin and "reasonable" English. The waiter spoke Cantonese and "reasonable" English. I was a semi interpreter with my VERY mediocre Mandarin and Pathetic Cantonese. Now you hear people in HK speaking Mandarin all the time. Sure that's because so many Mainland visitors, but lots of HK residents tell me a strong prerequisite when hiring staff is their Mandarin skills.


I notice the same thing. My family is the nominated "Guardian" for several HK students studying in my home country. Basically they are the kids of friends of ours in HK. HK students hang with HK students. Similar for most of the newer wave of immigrants. Vietnamese, Sudanese etc. The HK Kids I refer to have excellent English skills so I guess it is just a case of having more in common with other HK Students.

[ Last edited by  TonyToro at 3-3-2011 13:35 ]

It pretty much sums up as a self-fulfilling prophecy where they don't improve their English because they don't think they'll get opportunities to use it, but they'll never use it since they never bother to improve it.

[ Last edited by  barg123 at 3-3-2011 13:44 ]

I did a course in a North East England University a couple of years ago and there was a big uproar about all the asian students attending:

1) They took on too many & could not handle the amount - classes were delayed etc

2) A Malaysian student I was talking too, his family & University were angry as f**k becuase his university made every student pay around 7000HK for an English course before they were allowed to go to the UK to study! - He failed his 1st one & had to re-pay. His English was very good BTW - Other universities (Such as Chinese) didnt! Alot of students could speak next to nothing! (And a lot were sleeping in lectures lol surprise surprise)

3) Some of the courses were 'group' courses and English students had these Asian students in their groups - who could not speak any English - and they were getting marked on these group courses - so they were complaining that it would bring their mark down - it was in local newspaper at the time back at home.

Basically the university just saw the cash per student....or per international student.... 1 year course = roughly 100,000 HK give or take....

Yes, these days Foreign students are too many times treated just as cash cows;  especially by those supposed "institutions" which primarily caters to the off-springs of wealthy parents who are not particularly partial towards/no aptitude for studies. MAN - these places can cost mega bucks

But even supposed 'proper educational institutions' are also VERY costly and discriminate/predatory towards the foreign students. I know of a boarding HIGH school in Canada which charges CDN$ 36,000 for local provincial students, a bit higher for out-of-province ones and CDN$ 48,500 for foreign students AND even students who are Canadian but whose family had not 'established residence" in the province for the previous 2 years.  

A very convenient ploy to charge kids from Canadian families who are no longer Canadian residents.  How many Canadians are living in Hong Kong/SE Asia did you say???!!

SEAJ

[ Last edited by  SEAJ at 3-3-2011 16:17 ]

Petay_1283:
Finding someone who can speak fluent English is not so important as you are not looking for a soul mate for your office. Heck, you don't want to get too close to your staff as it does upset the boss-staff relationship/authority. Unless you expect that person to be writing advertising copy and promotional materials, you just need someone who can speak passable business English. You yourself are the fluent English speaker, so it will fall on your shoulders to check the English in any of the promotional materials about your company.

In HK (rest of Asia too), the most desired staff are the ones who can think outside of the box, have a lot of self-initiative to find solutions for the company with little guidance from management, can interact socially with ppl from all walks of society, is a self-learner, and always think what is best for the company not what is best for herself/himself.

PS: There are advantages and disadvantages to hiring a hottie for the office. Advantages: her appearance at work brings smiles to you, accolades from envious friends and competitors, and combined with charm can get you insanely great deals from those suppliers who are headed by men.  Disadvantages: you will be tempted to get to know her better if you don't practice self-discipline, (best medicine is to go to sauna/wg/hg during lunch), because once you date a hottie staff, you will lose all authority in company.


Harrychan:
Like SEAJ said, you have to see the glass as half-full. Like I described above, the most desirable staff in HK/Asia tend to be the ones who have self-initiative and are self-learners. These type of people tend to have been uni-educated overseas in the West where independent thinking is encouraged. A person doesn't even have to go to a top uni in the west to learn how to be an independent thinker, the person just has to had lived and worked overseas. If you use your overseas education and work experience well, you will go very far in Asia.

All this talkin' about hi-falutin' stuff!!

We is needing sum pitchures!!

Before and after!!

SEAJ

OK - here's some RA 20's for musky members.  You Nookie newbies just gotta work harder at posting up good reports!  Pictures will also help your posts get favorable K awards.

Just remember though, NO SPAMMING and most importanlty NO FAKE REPORTS!!

Hayooooo SILVAH!!!

SEAJ

Petay, any chance this particular university is typically abbreviated into 2 letters and offers lots of scholarships at the undergrad level (and maybe graduate too, not sure)? If it's the one I'm thinking of, then at least at the graduate level, it is notorious for having weak programs that attract lots of international students.

What's even worse are things like this that target international students exclusively (though probably devised by people outside the US):
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB ... 66833446761162.html

Gotta tell you about the waist-let, just gotta.

OK, I met this gal in all places, at Dapeng (close to the Daya Bay nuclear power plant) after my golf game at the Century Sea-view in nearby Nam O. The bunch of us went to dinner afterwards and invited a few mommies we know and their gals to come along.

One of the mommies cornered me and told me that she has a "special girl" that she wants me to "take care of." This girl - TC I shall call her - is her younger sister's best friend and is actually a kindergarten teacher in Guangzhou.

TC was only making a bit over RMB 2,000/month and was having difficulties making ends meet and her best friend had suggested that she go down to DaPeng to talk to her elder sister (the mommie) to figure out some options.  Mommie knows that I used to keep another girl and how I was OK as a patron and thus really wanted me to "try her out" as TC was NOT willing to just be a KTV gal or to sell her body indiscriminately.

Mommie phoned TC to come and as soon as I saw her, I was really smitten!  Fabulous body and a sophisticated, very pretty face - and of course no "farm girl" mannerism about her at all.

And about the waist-let - well, she had started wearing it as an amulet to ward off "evil spirits" and protect her from harm as she embarked on this further phase of her life.

A delightful and really nice, pretty gal.

SEAJ

...and that's yet another story. but a very nice one.

good for u, SEAJ, i like that this mamasan trusted you and made a connection that clearly benefitted both ofyou. such arrangements aren't as common as they SHOULD be IMHO--The Life can be difficult for myriad reasons, but what harm is there, really, in treating a girl well and giving her an intro and basis for future opportunities, should she decide to pursue them?

even without seeing her face, she looks fab, and i'm glad to hear things worked out.

just my two cents on the language thing: there seems to be no disagreement that English standards are declining. ironic as most cultures, in the global village McLuhan posited in the 60s and that we now LIVE IN, are keen on promoting English-language studies. i think a full understanding isn't complete unless you analyze the lingua franca: HK-style Cantonese.

Hong Kong was essentially Chinese yet ruled by the British for generations. while people from different regions of China (with differing dialects, older folks in North Point still speak Shanghainese) helped form HK, the dominant dialect is Cantonese of a sort that developed differently from any other region. during the Cultural Revolution, when "culture" on the mainland was warped to say the least, HKers were enjoying films made by Hong Kongers--ironically, many of these were in Putonghua as the films earned critical and box office success in Taiwan and overseas Chinatowns.

but "The House of 72 Tenants" (1973), shot in Cantonese and reflecting the trials/tribulations of overcrowded Hong Kong, was a huge hit for Shaws. more Cantofilms followed, spearheaded by the comedies of the Hui Brothers and the excellent martial arts films of Lau Kar-leung. by the 80s, HK-Canto was the dominant dialect of local culture.

and thus, in a British Crown Colony that was 95% Chinese, HK-style Canto (complete with local puns and references to local popular culture) became a cultural identifier. young people everywhere need a sense of belonging, and HK-Canto is that connective tissue that young HKers identify with. it's distinctive: people from Guangzhou don't speak it, and HKers living overseas don't connect with the latest slang and jokes.

another fly in the ointment: the post-handover emphasis on "mother-tongue teaching." this whole concept was flawed from the start: what's the mainland's "mother tongue"? Putonghua of course, yet the HK's govt idea was to enforce Cantonese. the result? masses of mothers openly weeping on-camera upon learning their child would not get into a school with English-language instruction. they knew the importance of English in a young person's career path. the whole "mother-tongue" nonsense (remember those TV messages with Tung Chee-hwa? remember Tung Chee-hwa??) was shoveled under the rug, but a lot of young HKers freeze up when asked even simple questions in English.

of course, Putonghua is emphasized, and rightly so. many of my colleagues speak it with clients on the phone, and while they likely have accents, they're obviously understood on the other end of the line. they're professionals, so Putonghua is a huge plus. i know many who travel to China on biz routinely, and more than a few who have gone to work there for a few years (Beijing is the preferred destination), preferably during the Olympics, and returned with mainland-experience on their CV.

and...here's one of many shots i took of another wonderful PRC gal wearing a waistlet, and not much else...

JtB

YES!!!  New AVATAR!!

Go go go Gaile!

And yes, poor fumbling Uncle Chee Hwa - nice guy but.... Oh well, at least he' still got his family fortune to go back to.

What's gonna happen to our own Donald - or for that matter, our own Johnny John-John?!  

Our own 6 Million dollar man - oops, I mean 6 Thousand dollar man!

SEAJ

1st pic, girl on the left....bone sticking out freaked me out a lill

now i'm intrigued. as soon as i saw those pix of yr mystery gal i thought of that amazing afternoon in Beijing. that gal, Yao Yao, deserves a thread of her own...although most of the good pix are explicit. but...there are some stunners all over China. classic phenotypes in any major city.

so the waistlets seem to have small pieces of jade, and are a good luck charm. i bet the story's interesting...

glad u like the avatar, i explained how it came about on the Gaile thread. yr suggestion was 100% right. i love it, plus it was time to change.

Uncle Tung was a nice guy, but just not the right guy for the job. neither is The Bowtie, but at least he plays the game well. as for The Mustache, well he sure stuffed up didn't he. all bros shd take their 6k "lai see" and frolic with it! pump that money back into the local economy! hahahahahahaha!

i'm still elevated from the whole Gaile thing, and made it to the weekend without too much aggro. have to do some errands tomorrow, but plan to do some relaxing and catching up on sleep. trying to sched some sortof midsummer trip, but the work-sched is tripping me up yet again. before long i have to take the reins and start doing my OWN sched, but i'm not there yet.

if any bros have insight into the waistlet-thing, this thread is open for discussion. we've got two confirmed sightings, what's the deal??

JtB

Sorry - got to C+P this which I posted on a wrong thread!

Anyway, I was at the Fuhao last night, flitting between 2 rooms where my friends were partying.  One room with "Chill music" compliments of one of the guys who don't like all that singing (and who brought his Ipod connected to the music system, with lots of cool music i/o the piffle music at KTV's) and another room with lots of singing.  Lots of drinking and game playing in BOTH rooms.

Well, I was at the chill music room for a while, and when I went back to the Singing room, this idiot Gal was making a scene, pretending to be drunk and crying and throwing a tantrum.  What did we do? First we just had the DJ call her mommy and told the Mommy to control her gal.  Mommie couldn't do much - so we took matters into our own hands and just told her to go sit or sleep or cry or throw up or whatever she wants to do in a corner whilst we all just totally ignored her.  She was screaming to get her sitting fee and leave and we.... just left her alone.  

Sure enough, it wasn't ten minutes and of course she "sobered up" - for these gals try to make crap like this up - just to be able get their sitting fee and then  go off to another room.

I left at 11 and everybody was still giving her the cold shoulder - with NOBODY even paying any attention to her. We had all decided to chip in for her sitting fee - which we will only give to her when the last guy leaves, whilst our friend who picked her originally had picked another gal... and already left with her.  And this we explicitly relayed to both the Mommy as well as to the girl herself.

So....whaddya guys say?  Right thing to do or not?

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Reply #959 JackTheBat's post


Yes, jade is purported to have evil or mistfortune warding off abilities according to Chinese superstition.
  
Every year, my SO gives me another piece of jade in the shape of different zodiac animals to ward off such evil, but a few days/weeks later, I'd invariably lose or misplace it though!  Thus why I get myself confronted by/into so many evil girls!

Whatever these waist-lets are suppposed to do, it's nevertheless quite sexy IMHO.  In fact, prior to the pictures I posted up above, we were having a massage at Pozolim in CP - and the sight of her body with nothing on but the waist-let being kneaded and pummelled on just turned me on no end.

But of course she does have a very sexy body anyway; very solid, muscular and taut as she goes to the gym.  Ahhh.... another one that I should have kept longer!!
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Reply #958 sirtiger's post

Yes, Xiao Xiao IS quite slim - and that particular picture does make it seem as if she's scrawny. But actually she is slim/healthy and not skin and bones sickly.  She watches her diet very carefully and is practically a vegetarian - and she has a complexion that does sort of "glow" if you know what I mean.

But yeah, that particular picture makes it seems as if she's Aids thin!  

SEAJ



SEAJ

[ Last edited by  SEAJ at 5-3-2011 15:48 ]